no gains

[dave]

i have been doing the exercises for some time now and i haven't seen any results. is it possible to do the exercises too often? anyone else having this problem?

[mpizzle]

I have been browsing the forum for an old thread with which to enter this sizegenetics competition and I thought this simple question would be a useful place to start.

IMO, overtraining in PE is very easy to achieve and can of course be highly detrimental to gains. I know others who have discussed this idea have related it to bodybuilding and overtraining, and at the risk of repetition I believe it is useful to point out a potential similarity.

In bodybuilding, the muscle is placed under stress. By this I mean that a stimulus has placed a burden on the muscle cells ability to perform its normal functions, such as maintaining its resting cell potential, and its ability to contract in response to a stimulus. All these processes are dependent on the operation of the cell organelles, and on appropriate intra and extracellular conditions. This threat to the muscle cell's homestatic reserve (i.e. the cells ability to adjust to and modulate external and internal cell conditions in order so that its organelles can function. This process is itself conducted by the cell organelles.) can result in cell injury, death, or in adaptation. This response depends on the severity, timing, duration, etc. of the stress, and the state and adaptability of the cell. It the training stimulus is highly, but not excessively stressful (e.g. weightlifting) and the cell is in a good state (thanks to good nutrition, previous adequate rest, etc.), then the cell can potentially react to the homestatic threat by increasing its ability to maintain homestasis. In a muscle this occurs through hypertrophy, where more cell organelles and cell proteins such as actin and myosin (the contractile proteins) are synthesized.

Thus, the muscle cell is now in a position to meet the previous stress without threats to its homestatic reserve, since its functional potential or reserve has been increased.

I know that was a long explanation of bodybuilding, but my intention is to relate this explanation to PE.

In PE, one of the main theories is that the cells that surround the blood spaces in the corpus cavernosa are "stressed" by PE, and grow back in such a way that the spaces are bigger. If this is the case, then what potentially occurs is similar to the process that I have described above. The cell receive mechanical stress from PE. Their homestatic reserve is threatened, and in response, they synthesize more cellular proteins and they expand in size, and hence the spaces and penis is enlarged.

Now, to get to the issue of overtraining and optimal training frequency. If a cell is stressed the outcome, as I have described, is related to the severity and duration of the stress and the adaptability and state of the cell. If a very intense PE session takes place, the stress will obvious be increased. Thus, there will be a greater need for adaptation. This means a greater amount of time and nutrients will be needed for the cells of the penis to repair themselves and THEN make further adjustments to increase their size past their original size.

The other factor is the state of the penis cells prior to PE exercises. Are they still recovering from previous exercises, is the blood flow adequate and thus are metabolic substrates freely available?

What all this means is that a careful balance between PE intensity and frequency must be achieved in order to maximize gains and prevent injury. If frequency is too great, cells will be unable to repair themselves adequately, and thus not have a chance to increase their homestatic reserves and size. In my opinion, many pe'ers overtrain and diminish the gains they could achieve.

This also explains why some supplements can help with gains, since the blood flow to the penis is increased and therefore there is a greater availability of metabolic substrates and adaptation could proceed at a faster rate.

My advice to PE'ers would be this: Newbies start very slow, with 3-5 min of stretching and 5 min of jelqing every second day for the first 2 weeks. This will allow you to learn the technique of the basic jelq correctly, which is pivotal to future PE success.

To other PE'ers I would suggest that a basic schedule of 2 days on, 1 off, 2 on, 1 off, 3 on, 1 off, 3 on, two off and repeat might be a useful way to go if the routine is this: 5 min warm up, 3 min stretching, 10-15 min jelqing, warm down. Perform this routine at this frequency for 7 weeks and then have a weeks break and then repeat. After these 15 weeks, a 5 to 10 day break and an assessment of your progress would be useful.

This is simply my advice and opinion.

I didn't intend for the post to be this long at the outset. I hope this helps a few people.

[ebon00]

Originally posted by mpizzle
In PE, one of the main theories is that the cells that surround the blood spaces in the corpus cavernosa are "stressed" by PE, and grow back in such a way that the spaces are bigger. If this is the case, then what potentially occurs is similar to the process that I have described above.

I think that this theory is in error. The cells that we try to manipulate with PE are collagenous in nature and thus do not seem to hypertrophy or grow larger. As far as I know there is not evidence for hyperplasia in ligaments either. There is some smooth muscle tissue in the penis but it's still very unclear what, if any, relevance it has to PE.

Originally posted by mpizzle
The other factor is the state of the penis cells prior to PE exercises. Are they still recovering from previous exercises, is the blood flow adequate and thus are metabolic substrates freely available?

There is very little bloodflow to ligaments and fascial tissue. This is evidenced by the need for surgical repair to partially torn fascial tissue, it can't repair itself to any appreciable degree. Since the two layers of the tunica is analoguous to the fascia (and the tunica also requires surgical repair if torn/bruised) blood flow doesn't seem to have much to do with recovery in this case. True, all things being equal, increased blood flow will help PE results but that's probably because of the increased "pump" one can attain.

Originally posted by mpizzle
To other PE'ers I would suggest that a basic schedule of 2 days on, 1 off, 2 on, 1 off, 3 on, 1 off, 3 on, two off and repeat might be a useful way to go if the routine is this: 5 min warm up, 3 min stretching, 10-15 min jelqing, warm down. Perform this routine at this frequency for 7 weeks and then have a weeks break and then repeat. After these 15 weeks, a 5 to 10 day break and an assessment of your progress would be useful.

Have you, or anyone else, tried this schedule for any length of time and seen good gains? (Or to put it another way, has anyone assessed their progress after a full 15-week "rotation" and seen appreciable results?) I'm not saying it won't work but I think that 3 min of stretching is too little to actually do any good.

[mpizzle]

Whilst I also question the validty of the stressing cells and growing back theory, this does not negate the issues of cell injury and repair. Whatever is happening in PE, some kind of growth (hypertrophy probably, rather than hyperplasia) is occuring, and thus the principles I outlined regarding cell response to stress and the need for recovery still stand. This means the issue of previous stress and recovery are also still valid.

The main point of my post was to draw attention to the issue of overtraining, and how detrimental it is to results. This is because I think it is very possible that this is one of the main reasons people do not get the results they expect.

About the proposed routine: I have seen this routine used by others and with great success. People have gained 1 to 2 inches within 3 months or so on this kind of simple routine.

I have only just started this routine. I have been around the forum and PE for a while, but I have not gone full steam ahead with the exercises in the past for certain reasons. I intend to follow the suggested routine for 15 weeks and see how I go. I'll post my progress to give people an idea of how effective it is.

I can post links to the threads that deal with success by people who have used these routines, but some of the threads are on other PE forums, and I'm not sure if thats allowed.

By the way, I am not intending to get into an argument with you ebon00 by posting this response. I have browsed the forum and see the excellent contribution you have made, especially in the advanced exercise section. I appreciate your responses.

Another thing - ebon00, you have been around PE awhile. What do you think is the probable mechanism behind penis growth in PE.

[ebon00]

Originally posted by mpizzle
Another thing - ebon00, you have been around PE awhile. What do you think is the probable mechanism behind penis growth in PE.

I've been trying to find some info on this by looking into nedical papers relating to increasing mobility in joints (since the collagenous tissue we're working with closely resembles the muscle tendons from what I can figure). But there's usually only mention of the methods used and the mechanism behind it is left out (or hypothesized about in various ways). Suffice to say that considering the tissues involved it will have to do with one of three things:

1) hypertrophy - that is, increased cell size by the addition of functional elements to the tissues. From what I've been able to ascertain there's little evidence for cell-growth in ligaments mostly because of limited bloodflow and the composition of the tissues. Some1 subsatnces, like chondritin, can strengthen the ligaments but that's not really desirable in PE where pliability is key.

2) hyperplasia - the creation of new cells. Also unlikely although it has been shown to occur with long-term, low-force stress (stretch) in animals, mainly cats. To date I know of no evidence for hyperplasia in adult humans although the possibility has been widely discussed.

3) enlarging of the cells without added functional elements - this would mean a decrease in the density of the tissues which would, theoretically, mena that there's a distinct upper limit to PE growth. Certain case reports from the PE community suggest that this is probably the least probable of the three scenarios.